Madness In Colorado

Discussion in 'SF Lounge' started by iso_55, Jul 20, 2012.

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  1. iso_55

    iso_55 Member

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    Mass shooting in Aurora, CO this morning at a midnight screening of The Dark Knight. Twelve people died, 59 shot & injured. My condolences go out to the people died & injured as well as their families. They found the shooter, a 24 year old former medical student who not only shot & killed the moviegoers but booby trapped his apartment intent on killing police officers. Today is a day for America to discuss the plethora of guns in their country & how people can own assault weapons so easily. Since he has been arrested, this guy deserves the death penalty. A shocking day...
     
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  2. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Today actually isn't the day to politicize "assault weapons and how people can own them so easily".

    Today is a day of mourning for those people.

    There are a lot of "assault weapons" out there that normal, everyday people own, in both the US and Canada.

    The term "assault weapon" was started by the Liberal media to demonize TOOLS of the trade that professional shooters, target shooters and the military use on a daily basis.

    I think I should note that it is now being reported that the cinema that this shooting took place in was a "gun free zone", meaning that your average, concerned citizen in the US who has been legally vetted and allowed to carry a concealed weapon for both their own protection and the protection of others, was NOT ALLOWED to carry their firearm into the cinema; but not because of local, state or federal law prohibiting it, but because the CINEMA OWNERS felt that the "threat" from such a person was too great.

    Iso, seriously, guns do not kill people. Bad people will find a way to acquire guns no matter what. If they can't expeditiously find a gun, they'll use a knife, of a hatchet, or a frying pan.

    The solution is NOT to criminalize the possession of the gun, but to ENCOURAGE more average, everyday people to carry them on daily basis, and I mean that.

    Think about this. If the Canadian government passed a law tomorrow that said: "every household in the country is now required to possess a loaded shotgun, and mandatory firearms training is required for everyone in the country so that anyone in any household knows how to properly and safely use their firearm", what do you think would happen to crime rates? Specifically burglary rates, what happens? Do B&E's go up, or do they fall of the map?

    Just for the record, I personally own weapons that the layman, media or weapons un-educated may consider "assault weapons". Actually, I own several of them. I have been vetted by means of a 2 day firearms course, a government background check, a possession and acquisition license that I must produce before buying ammunition or weapons and numerous restrictions / limitations on when, where and how I can use my own personal property.

    Murder is already illegal. Mass-murder is also illegal. We cannot make murder or mass-murder anymore illegal than it already is.

    We really need to stop focusing on the gun on start focusing on the society that we've become.
     
  3. iso_55

    iso_55 Member

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    Nope, I disagree, SR. Today IS the day Americans need to talk about it. I have no problems with people owning shotguns, twenty twos or hunting rifles. I think the Long Gun Registry in this country was a bad idea & i am glad it is gone. It made law abiding citizens criminals. As well as being a huge tax grab by the tax & spend federal Liberals as well evaded the privacy of law abiding gun owners in this country. But I do have a problem with people owning assault rifles like an AK47 or handguns. Why do people need to own those? Sure, there legit collectors out there that are responsible, but overall, really??
    And society's problems & guns go hand in hand. If a nutcase wants to use a gun to mass murder people like this morning, the gun doesn't fire itself, so this thing about guns not killing people, people kill people is a lame cliche & a lie. Guns don't kill people, but people use guns to kill people.
    In America, it's time to do something to stop these assault rtifles & handguns from being sold but there will be a lot of opposition from people as well as the NRA.
     
  4. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    There will be a lot of opposition from the NRA, as there should be.

    Let's think about this logically.

    First, what makes an "assault weapon" an "assault weapon"? Is it because they're all black? Is it because they look scary? An "assault weapon" is nothing more than a regular gun.

    There is no legal definition (that I'm aware of) that describes what an "assault weapon" is; but people see pictures of these cool looking guns and they think to themselves: "wow, you could kill a lot of people with that thing".

    They are no more dangerous or deadly than hunting rifles or handguns. Chances are, if you shoot someone with anything, they're probably going to die.

    I own handguns. I shoot handguns regularly. I've never shot anyone with anything. I go to the range and target practice with all of the guns, because I consider it a hobby and nothing more.

    Is there any particular reason why I shouldn't be allowed to own a handgun? Do you understand how tough the vetting process is to be able to buy a handgun in Canada, and how many restrictions there are on how and where I can use them?

    All of these government restrictions didn't stop gang-bangers from from shooting up a BBQ in Toronto. But wait! I thought that Canadians can't carry a handgun with them???? How is it possible that they had them at a party and were able to fire them at a gang rival? I could have sworn that shooting at people was already illegal.

    The bottom line is that criminals don't give a rats ass about what laws we have, they're just going to bypass and ignore them anyways. We don't live in a utopia where nobody commits crimes or nobody is addicted to drugs. We live in the real world and we need real world gun laws.

    Why is it that Brinks or Loomis guards are allowed to carry guns to protect their customers money, but I can't carry a handgun to protect my LIFE?
     
  5. iso_55

    iso_55 Member

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    An assault weapon would be a semi automatic or automatic weapon. One that fires more than a single shot at a time. As far as handguns go, well yeah there are people that are law abiding like yourself & own handguns BUT... the majority of cases when they are used, they are used in robberies, assaults, kidnapping & murder. I'm not naive to think that banning handguns will get rid of them but make it hard to own so that people like yourself who want them will be responsible. Like I said, I have no issues with people that own rifles, shotguns or twenty twos but handguns & ASSAULT rifles, yeah.
     
  6. iso_55

    iso_55 Member

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    An assault weapon would be a semi automatic or automatic weapon. One that fires more than a single shot at a time. As far as handguns go, well yeah there are people that are law abiding like yourself & own handguns BUT... the majority of cases when they are used, they are used in robberies, assaults, kidnapping & murder. I'm not naive to think that banning handguns will get rid of them. You' ve gone thru the process & that's good but something in the States needs to be done which is the discussion here, not Canada. Like I said, I have no issues with people that own rifles, shotguns or twenty twos but handguns & ASSAULT rifles, yeah. I am sure a lot of Americans do, too.
     
  7. Rids

    Rids Member

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    Anybody know the stats on gun crimes by owners of legal firearms vs guns that were illegally obtained? I'm sure those numbers have to be published somewhere but too lazy to hunt it down today.
     
  8. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    What you're saying makes little sense, in all honesty.

    Why don't we ban cars that can exceed the speed limit? Speeding is illegal and therefore nobody needs a car that can travel faster than the fastest post speed limit of 110K/H, right?

    Here's a semi-automatic assault rifle, right?

    [​IMG]

    And another "assault weapon":

    [​IMG]

    So we should ban both of those (and many, many other legitimate hunting rifles) based solely on the fact that they're semi-automatic?

    Just because a gun can shoot several rounds in a semi-automatic fashion doesn't mean that it's an "assault weapon", it means that it can shoot several rounds in a semi-automatic fashion.

    And here, ultimately, is the "rub":

    If we start "banning" things based on what they're designed to do, where do we stop?

    People have microwaved live cats previously, should we ban all microwaves?

    What about swimming pools? Or Water? Yearly, swimming pools kill more kids than any type of gun in Canada.

    So where do we stop? When do we stop punishing legal, law-abiding people for the actions of others?

    Look at what New York is doing just today because of this shooting.

    Their new policy is to "search" anyone coming into a theater, IN NEW YORK (~2000 miles away from Colorado), because they're concerned about a "copycat" crime happening there.

    Is that okay? Are you okay with that? Would you be okay with being searched trying to go to a movie in a theater 3/4 of a continent away because of one fools actions?

    Where do we stop?

    It's the slippery slope, and you can either believe me or not, but we are losing rights in this country (and in the US) at an alarming rate because people pull the "public safety" card and can do whatever they want! Should we hire a bunch of government tire inspectors to check your tire inflation before you're allowed to travel anywhere? Blowouts due to improperly inflated tires are a real problem. Do we want the government to go that far, because if you're not for a program like that, speak now or forever hold your peace, because that is EXACTLY where we are headed.
     
  9. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Directly from StatsCan:

    If you'd like, I can produce exact numbers of crime committed with both legal and illegal firearms, you'll just have to give me some time to come up with the numbers and links to prove it.

    But my point is this: Gun crime is very, very rare in Canada (and even the US). It's the media that blows crimes committed with guns out of the water with hyperbole and hysteria.

    True fact, in the US you are more likely to be killed by a PIECE OF YOUR FURNITURE OR TV than you are by an act of terrorism. I just read that article the other day and could probably find the link fairly easily, if you would like to read it.

    People need to relax a little and understand that with ~9M guns in Canada and ~120M guns in the US, you are VERY UNLIKELY to die because somebody kills you with a gun.
     
  10. iso_55

    iso_55 Member

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    SR, I already said that I am okay with hunting rifles... Not AK47 machine guns.Those pics you showed look a lot like hunting rifles to me. For every one of you in the US who are law abiding gun owners, there are 10 people who aren't. Not including gang bangers & such. We already have gun control here & I can't see it getting any tighter. But the US has a long way to go... We'll see what happens.
     
  11. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    A "free country" doesn't ban things because of what they look like.

    I mean, really, that's the standard here? The "high bar", if you will, is what something looks like?

    The fact of the matter is that I have a right to protect myself, and I should be allowed to carry a firearm at my leisure. I shouldn't have to fight public opinion, liberals and the government just so that I can legally protect myself from some nut case.

    It's the age-old argument that "only the police and military should have guns", and than these people go out and protest "police abuse" the next day.

    The US got it right, frankly. Their Constitution gives the people the RIGHT to protect themselves. Frankly, I think they need guns to protect themselves from government over-reach more than they would need them to protect themselves against some gang banger.

    Our entire society is becoming pussified to the point of the youngest generation of "alpha males" now wearing tight pants, guy-liner and listening to top 40 hits music.

    It's a free country, do what you want and I'll support your right to do it, but western society is being destroyed from within and you can either ignore that or act upon it.

    It's no longer acceptable to shoot pop cans with a pellet gun in your backyard. It's not longer acceptable to own a handgun because "you might kill someone! OHNOEZ!" It's no longer acceptable to be a man and work hard and compete, because some little mamby-pamby might suddenly become offended.

    No, instead now everyone gets a trophy and a pat on the back and told what a little gem they are everyday.

    We've somehow managed to almost criminalize normal male behavior in this country and it's gone largely unnoticed.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bronko

    Bronko Member

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    The only reason guns should still be allowed is exactly this situation. If someone else had been armed at the screening perhaps they could have taken out the vermin before the vermin shot 70+ humans. Same situation to an extent in Toronto a couple weeks back - the people gunned down were totally defenseless - the vermin was trying to set records for biggest mass shooting - he created some serious mayhem and killed over a dozen humans. If only someone in the crowd had been weaponed - the damage could have been less!

    But its pretty difficult to stop all madness.
     
  13. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    I'm not sure if you're joking or being serious.

    I know how we typically disagree on things, which is fine, so I'm not sure if you think more guns is actually a good idea or not.
     
  14. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Also, I forgot to mention that "assault rifles" like the AK-47 and AK-74, actually, all AK variants, are already banned from being sold in Canada.

    They were banned based on Liberal fear-mongering regarding how "evil and scary looking" they were, not on fact.

    AR-15's are still legal here, but are heavily restricted. The magazines are pinned to 5 rounds and they can only be shot at a range under the supervision of a range master; that is unless you're a gang banger and than none of the above applies to you because in Canada, the law doesn't typically apply to you.

    Handguns are legal as long as the magazines are pinned to 10 rounds maximum and they have a barrel length of over 4.15".

    Also proving that most guns that are prohibited in Canada were prohibited due to how they look is the fact that the Ruger Mini-14, the gun used in the Polytechnique shooting was never restricted nor prohibited and can still legally be purchased in Canada under the "non-restricted" classification.
     
  15. Bronko

    Bronko Member

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    Actually Stamps Rule, I agree with you. And I'm as left as they come other than the right to bear arms and to re-impose capital punishment in Canada.

    I'm not the only lefty who believes in such things.

    With gun bans proliferating, we as a society are actually catering to the sick and demented individuals like the piece of vermin who lit up the movie theatre.

    I someone in the audience (trained) had been packing heat, there would have been a good chance to take down the vermin, or at least deflect his attention into more a defensive posture and more people could have been saved or evacuated until police arrived (which in this case was fairly fast, under 2 minutes)


    By the same token I believe bearing firearms could also cause accidents as in the case of a person pulling off a joke and a disturbed gun-bearer taking him out.

    But you can't have it both ways. If the population is dis-armed, the bad guys (who don't care about laws and serial numbers) WIN, BIG TIME!

    Whats your opinion, SR if one of the audience was packing a glock - while the shooter had some pretty nasty attack rifles? Once the audience draws his glock and unless he's able to accurately pin down the rifleman, he's in tough circumstance. His fire has identified his location and now the rifleman is hunting the glock-bearer.
     
  16. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Nice, I'm impressed.

    I agree with you. Accidents can (and will) happen, but that shouldn't preclude me from carrying a gun.

    The marksmanship / sport shooting hobbyist crowd is pretty large in Canada, but the media won't tell you that. There are 6 gun stores in Calgary alone, and trust me, they're busy all the time.

    My opinion regarding the ability of someone who is trained and licensed to carry a firearm is positive, obviously.

    I think that what a lot of people fail to realize is that these "people" who commit these large, mass-murdering crimes are actually cowards at heart. They have no problem dressing up in bullet proof vests and an armory of weapons and shooting at a crowd of unarmed civilians that can't protect themselves, but they typically run (I am not a cop, nor a criminal investigator, so this is my personal opinion) when they are confronted by someone who's willing to shoot back.

    This incident at an internet cafe in Florida happened just 3 days ago. Watch how fast those little bastards flee when the old man pulls a gun.

    [youtube]1t5f5AwkkiY[/youtube]

    That old man (no disrespect) was out-numbered, out-gunned and 3 times their age, and as soon as they understood that he was prepared to defend himself with force on force action, they bolted.

    The thing that pisses me off the most about US laws (not that it affects me directly) is that there are "gun free" zones throughout the US where people can't legally carry a concealed firearm. Unfortunately, this cinema was one of these areas.

    As always happens, the law-abiding people who don't want to break the law leave their guns at home and are defenseless, and the criminals don't care.

    You're basically announcing: "Nobody has a gun here! We're easy targets!".

    Now this law doesn't apply to Canada because everywhere is essentially a "gun free zone". It's actually better because instead of having these select "zones" of unarmed people, everyone is unarmed and therefore nobody is a "larger target" than the next group of people. On that same note, It's worse because like you said, you're basically giving the criminals the run of the country to do whatever they want without impunity.

    I would like to say this: If there had been a single armed person in that theater that was prepared to shoot back, I don't think that we would have seem the huge amounts of dead and injured that we all woke up to this morning.

    People still probably would have been shot and died, but I certainly don't think it would have been 15 dead and 70+ injured if someone was sending lead towards the shooter.

    What annoys me most about Canada's self defense laws is what I mentioned above. Brinks, Loomis and the police are all allowed to carry firearms for their own protection because they each have dangerous, high-profile jobs.

    I'm certainly not making the case that all police should be disarmed, but if Brinks and Loomis drivers can carry guns for their own protection (and to protect their customers money), than why the hell can't I carry one with the proper training and certifications?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Bronko

    Bronko Member

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    The fact that this particular shooter/coward didn't turn one of his guns on himself makes very clear he was going for 'Kill Records' and wanted the notoriety while he rots in jail, gets his story out and tries to draw media attention.

    Wearing a suit of body armour and getting into the theatre with a heavy bag of rifles is the fault of lax security by the theatre or shopping mall.

    But what do you do, now? Check everyone for body armour, explosives, rifles, other shooting equipment?

    btw, I refuse to mention the shooter/vermin's real name as he's definitely not a human being. Better to pay tribute to the victims than keep drawing attention to the vermin. However, most american (and canadian) media will break that rule and start doing features on vermin/gunman and his family...
     
  18. Rids

    Rids Member

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    The reports we were getting down here was that he parked his car at the back of the theater which was where the guns/body armor was.

    He went into the theater, walked down to the front, out the secondary exit and into his car, came back in with the tear gas and started shooting. Terrible stuff.

    That he waited in the parking lot rather than driving away is kind of boggling too.
     
  19. Liske

    Liske Member

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    Yet another law abiding gun owner goes berserk (yawn).

    The looney NRA types want us to believe that only criminals with guns kill people.
     
  20. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    This guy was a "law abiding gun owner"?

    I'm pretty sure that committing murder is illegal and does not, in fact, make you "law abiding".

    This really has nothing to do with "looney NRA types". I'm a member of the NRA. Am I looney? They send me a membership card and a magazine every once in awhile, and I've never once read anything from the NRA that advocates mass-murder.

    It's actually being reported (but not independently verified....yet) that this guy was a "black bloc" member of Occupy San Diego, but he left because he felt that the "Occupy movement" didn't go far enough.

    Now whether he is or is not affiliated with Occupy means nothing to me as I'm rational enough to understand that this guy was as legitimately crazy as they get.

    The guy who shot John Lennon shot him and than sat down a read a book until the police showed up. Crazy people are just crazy.

    But you know what? Irrational solutions come from both sides.

    I say we give everyone a gun and ban Batman movies.

    After all, if there wasn't a new Batman movie being shown, this never would have happened, right?

    Maybe we should ban all movies and movie theaters, just to make sure?

    Or maybe we should ban crazy people?
     
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