Undercover Seattle PD hired to wear 49ers jerseys to weed out unruly fans

Discussion in 'SF Lounge' started by Stamps Rule, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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  2. Rids

    Rids Member

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    It's not entrapment unless the cops wearing the opposing team jerseys are goading them into a fight or something illegal.

    Creating a news item out of this hopefully is enough to stop the borderline abusive situations that have potential to turn into assault charges.

    The NFL has been hindered recently by several fan fights escalating into serious offenses (people being shot, thrown down sets of stairs).
     
  3. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Can't wait to here what TM has to say about this.

    I would argue that just by merely showing up at a game while wearing an opposing teams jersey that that would be considered entrapment. Just by wearing the jersey, you're attempting to illicit a negative response.

    There's no rule that says that you have to wear a jersey to a game. The cops could just go to the game wearing team colours or no team related clothing at all. I would have no problem with that.

    But hiring cops to wear opposing teams jerseys? If not entrapment, it's at the very least an incredibly morally bankrupt thing to do.
     
  4. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    That's an issue that can only be corrected by society, not undercover cops wearing other teams jerseys.
     
  5. Barracuda

    Barracuda Member

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    What's to stop them from releasing this "news" to the media and who's going to follow up that it ever happens? Instead people read this and are wary to start trouble with folks in opposing colors. Seems like a low budget way to increase security.
     
  6. Madman

    Madman Administrator
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    That's exactly what I thought too.

    Release it, make a big deal about it, then never actually do it but everyone thinks they are out there.
     
  7. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    Where is TM?
     
  8. Liske

    Liske Member

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    I don't understand this. Is there no security at games already? Why don't they use normal security procedures?

    Makes no sense.
     
  9. Tundra Mustang

    Tundra Mustang Moderator
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    Since there appear to be some search parties out there on this board looking for me, I'll try to respond to the question posed as briefly as I can. ;)

    There are some subtle differences between how the "Entrapment Defence" is defined, and how it is employed, both in the U.S. and in Canada, but its simplest elements are whether the legal authorities provided mere "opportunity" for the commission of a crime, or whether the authorities "induced" its commission by the wrongdoer.

    In the U.S., the cases line up along two different axis of evaluation: the "subjective" test and the "objective" test.

    The subjective test will focus on the predisposition of that individual to commit the very crime he subsequently argues he was "entrapped" into committing. If that predisposition is found, the defence will fail, and a conviction will result.

    An objective test, however, will focus on whether the police conduct in question would serve to implant a criminal idea and induce otherwise law obiding individuals to break the law. If so, the entrapment defence will succeed.

    Cases in the U.S. have followed both streams, with convictions and acquittals being dependent upon whether a particular jurisdiction sanctioned the use of one test or the other.

    In Canada, the distinction seems to be one of "opportunity" or "inducement". When the bait is taken by someone who has only been provided with a mere opportunity to commit an offence, (regardless of whether or not the issue of "predisposition to commit" is present), the defence will fail and a conviction will follow. (This is a somewhat stricter application of the law which limits the boundaries of an entrapment defence than would the American "objective" view).

    However, where the police have by their conduct actually induced an individual to commit an offence, the Canadian practice is to assess the factors present to decide whether the accused was "entrapped": those factors would include (using a form of the "objective test"), whether the police activity would induce criminal conduct amongst otherwise law-abiding citizens, what inducements (by fraudulent or deceitful conduct) or threats were made (both of which would invoke the Charter principle against "bringing the administration of justice into disrepute"), and the nature of the offence committed.

    On the whole, because of the nature of the enquiry in Canada is more restrictive in its application than it is in the U.S., the chances of successfully running an "entrapment defence" are markedly lower in this country.

    Applied to the facts here, I would be hard pressed to conclude that an undercover police officer merely donning a rival team jersey (without more) would provide inducement or invitation to common assault. (Now if we're talkin 'riders jerseys, well maybe....uh, well, naw, not even then! :p).

    If the police officer did more than that, (such as acted belligerently, threateningly, or insultingly towards those around him), and perhaps as a result induced a general riot at the stadium, the courts here would review the factors and would almost certainly take a much dimmer view of the police action, and "entrapment" would be successfully argued.

    Although I suspect the same result (a conviction) would would be achieved in an American jurisdiction where mere opportunity (without more) is offered, I won't offer an opinion on what would happen in Seattle, since I don't know whether the "objective" or "subjective" test for entrapment is followed in Washington State.

    I hope this helps. ;)


    TM
     
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  10. Madman

    Madman Administrator
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    If that was the "brief" reply, I'd hate to see the detailed one. :oldman:
     
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  11. Tundra Mustang

    Tundra Mustang Moderator
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    As is the case with many legal issues, this one is not explicable in a sentence or two.

    I was attempting to reduce the issue to its basic elements without over-simplifying it, while still providing something of informational value to people who may not know a lot about how the law really looks at the matter.

    And not only would you hate to "see" the detailed reply, you'd like even less to have seen the bill you would have received for that privilege...;)


    TM
     
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  12. deuvl

    deuvl Moderator
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    Next time ask for Joe Pesci.
     
  13. deuvl

    deuvl Moderator
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    I have to admit after reading all of this carefully that you have made an excellent summary here. Kudos.
     
  14. Tundra Mustang

    Tundra Mustang Moderator
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    I appreciate your thanks, deuvl!

    "Joe" certainly remains on call, however........for those who would prefer the 'higher impact' and 'much briefer' reply which is designed to save me the effort...;)



    "Hey! What're you laughin' at? You think entrapment is 'funny'? 'Funny', like how? In what kinda way, 'funny'? You think I'm 'funny'? Is that it? Is that what you're sayin'? I'm 'funny'? 'Funny' like this....? Or maybe, 'funny' like this!?!"... :rage:


    TM
     
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  15. deuvl

    deuvl Moderator
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    Apparently 'My Cousin Vinny' has garnered respect among law professionals as an accurate description and portrayal of the judicial process. I could totally relate to Mr. Gambini who had oh so much to learn.
     
  16. Tundra Mustang

    Tundra Mustang Moderator
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    I was thinking more "Goodfellas" than "Cousin Vinny", but who am I to argue about a film whose premise features a novice lawyer in his first trial representing "two yutes" on a murder charge? :D


    TM
     
  17. Stamps Rule

    Stamps Rule Member

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    I appreciated it. Thanks.
     

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